There is an essential flaw in all the above.

The underlining tone is that if the govt allows for a totally free elections then we will have a good house to represent us and that cannot be further from the truth, the most educated, experienced, well travelled, exposed individuals in Jordan, the elite, are in the private sector and have no interest for things to change, that leaves us with second tier candidates, or we end up with islamists who refuse to pay their condolences to the families of victims that lost relatives in the Amman bombings. Or some sheikh of some tribe that barely passed his tawjihi exam and my favs leftist who accuse the govt for being puppets of some foreign power while they have well documented ties to outside forces themselves.

Of the Amman bombings. Or some sheikh of some tribe that barely passed his tawjihi exam and my favs leftist who accuse the govt for being puppets of some foreign power while they have well documented ties to outside forces themselves.

There are two problems when it comes to reform in Jordan, the grass roots movements as just as corrupt as the govts them rebel against, the history of Jordan is filled with individuals who had enormous public support as opposition figures, got to power and became in many cases worse than their predecessors.

The other problem is that most of these grassroots, opposition parties, unions are too divided amongst themselves to put any sort of serious pressure necessary for change, for the most part these parties are either leftist or islamists, and there is no common ground between them and both often support the regime because the regime is not as much of a threat to them as they are to each other. The regime knows this and plays them against each other.

Until we remove the corruption and hypocrisy there, we will not see any sort of reform.

Again, you reached this “conclusion” based on what? And even if this holds true, why do you think this happened? What caused “the elite” to become disengaged? Instead of stating assumptions, I would suggest that you ask intelligent questions.

Take a look around, all these generations that got their higher education in Canada, the US , The UK and Beirut, these people are not going to spend a 100 k getting a degree only to come back and work for a 250 jod salary, such life styles of travel , nice houses , future for their kids can not be sustained by govt salaries.There are exceptions to this of course and that is the elite whose family business is the govt . Current PM is an example.

“who accuse the govt for being puppets of some foreign power while they have well documented ties to outside forces themselves.”

even if thats true , what the point if i declare this and I myself am a puppet of hamas ( or back in the days Egypt, Saddam or Syria?) Saddam bribing our journalists through housing and cars is well documented.

“the history of Jordan is filled with individuals who had enormous public support as opposition figures, got to power and became in many cases worse than their predecessors.”

Examples please?

b the free officers movement in Jordan for example, which was funded and directed by Egypt ,what happened to their leaders? Almost all of them either became PM, Chief of staffs or heads of the GID, they had enjoyed enormous support from the people as evident by the uprisings that took place then, failed in their coups attempts and ended up being part of the same regime they were rebelling against.

Another point is that these opposition groups are by default fascists , for example, if the islamists win the elections then we best pack our bags and leave because under their rule its one vote , one time and its game over , their belief system( rule by islam) cannot be compromised to allow leftists infidels to even exist in the first place. Algeria anyone?

as for the leftists and liberals , would they even allow for such a possibility? by principle, wont they ban religious parties?

almost all of us agree on general policies, for example we all want to see a resolution for the palestinian issue, the govt wants two state solution, on the other hand islamists want an islamic state there, leftists a secular one. what i am tryin to say is that these differences are too big , too huge, for us to function as a cohesive unit.

corruption, we all agree on it, but to the islamists it would also include, the arts, the bars, the restaurants, the mixing of students , the night clubs, the festivals etc.

while taking pictures of old amman this week , i saw an incident in al nuzha, where a sheikh was caught for stealing, the police officer slapped him and said mish 3eib tosrog ou inta sheikh? the sheikhs reply was, but he is not a muslim he is a zandeeq ( the guy was a muslim but not his kind of muslim)

thats how we view each other , so change all the elections laws that you want, it shit gonna change.

“The idea that election reform won't change anything is,at best, based on assumptions that are not yet validated. I will redirect you again to the 1989 elections which produced a high quality parliament. Plus we need to stop using the Islamist boggy monster argument. I say if they win, let them change things, let them govern and I am pretty sure they will fail to deliver and will ultimately be voted out.”

see thats the problem with islamists ,when they rule , its the rule of god, going against that means that you are going against god and his will, god and his instructions, islam is the solution, is not some motto, its the basis of their movement. there will be no voting out ,no islamic govt in history has done so.

” We must be a country of institutions not only governments. The government and the parliament are not the state they are just parts of it, so to suggest that all hell will break loose when either the government or the parliament are controlled by islamists is a bit of an extreme assumption to make.

On a side note, do you really think that islamists are concerned with the local issues of the country? They have been allies to the regimes since forever. Actually their presence, in my opinion, is one of the major hurdles blocking reform in Jordan. They offer some citizens a disengaged alternative. In a way they are the management of the hotel “حشد ورباط”. They offer a “temporary” sense of belonging to a marginalized segment of the jordanian society.”

as i mentioned above , after looking back at their history and their doctrines, there is no evidence that the islamists would just go away quietly , as for their concern with local issues, one has to look at how maysoon ( a cartoon character in arabic text books for elementary grades) now wears the hijab , ( back in my days she was your avg 8-12 school girl ) , not even Prince Hasan managed to stop that.

the islamists are no longer allies to the regime, over the past decades there have been plenty of clashes and crackdowns and confrontations between both sides, they have even resulted in splitting the islamic brotherhood to two parties, the events of the first iraq war have politicized the movement, the closing of hamas headquarters in amman was another factor, the peace treaty with isreal, the passing away of king hussein, etc etc have really changed the relationship between the two and i dont think you can make the statement that they are allies. At least not today.

Again I think that we agree more than we disagree. The injection of god and religion into politics adds “holy” and “sacred” dimensions thus making opposition a type of heresy. Iran provides an timely example, where their regime labeled opposition as enemies of allah. What I am saying is that in Jordan we have institutions that can and should be molded to serve the country and provide the necessary checks and balances on any governing entity. The Judicial branch, the security apparatus, the press, and we the people shouldn't be viewed as spectators, even when we are simply making assumptions.

And you said it best when you said at the end of your comment “At least not today”. The regime enabled and strengthened the brotherhood. They provided an environment where such movements can flourish, just like they are doing now with the salafi movement in salt,irbid,karak, and ma'an. The ministry of education was given as a gift from the late king hussein to the brotherhood. In the effort to stop the leftist “invasion”, the brotherhood provided the “perfect” counter balance entity to stop those “godless” commies..And now we are paying the price, thanks to such policies.

Also, when I said “local issues” I was referring to the economic and social well being of Jordanian. The veiled maysoon, just proves my point that they are more concerned with irrelevant issues. But the again, they do believe that when maysoon is not veiled ,god will not be happy with the whole society.

well consider this, as a member of the union, any union you have to take an oath to boycott israel, now what if that person did not want to boycott Israel ? do u have a right not to? no you dont , how do we expect the opposition to be any better than the current govts that we get if they are as oppressive and totalaitarian amongst themselves? the unions and the islamists are the largest opposition groups and judging from their behavior I dont see how they will fare any better, the danger with them of course is that much like any arab president, if they get to power they will not let go off it .

the support that the govt gave to the brotherhood is not entirely responsible for the rise of Islamists that we see in Jordan , those more extreme elements have outside influences that are far beyond the states ability to combat.the saudi influence on ma'an is a prime example of such examples, where islamic groups outside the jurisdiction of the brotherhood and the regime have shaped up the more extreme islamis groups in Jordan. the leadership , the one that has the long his of cooperative policy with the regime remains as moderate as it ever was and this is illustrated by the fact that they reject the more extreme factions, the fact that they actively participate in conferences that promote the type of moderate Islam that with reason and sensibility function in secular state.

one could argue that if the islamists were oppressed like they were in Egypt and Syria and Iraq then they would have turned violent and extreme, just as what has happened in the above mentioned countries. I think leaving them room to operate within reason remains a major reason why Jordan is still doing ok in terms of religious freedoms, relationships between muslims and christians , specially when compared to others in the region.

back to the issue it is , with the quality you have in the opposition ranks today, nothing indicates that there will be any real change should there be different laws for elections, i presented my case with numerous examples .

cheers

Now,lets get back to the main topic and forget about the islamists, for now :)

“The idea that election reform won't change anything is,at best, based on assumptions that are not yet validated. I will redirect you again to the 1989 elections which produced a high quality parliament. Plus we need to stop using the Islamist boggy monster argument. I say if they win, let them change things, let them govern and I am pretty sure they will fail to deliver and will ultimately be voted out.”

see thats the problem with islamists ,when they rule , its the rule of god, going against that means that you are going against god and his will, god and his instructions, islam is the solution, is not some motto, its the basis of their movement. there will be no voting out ,no islamic govt in history has done so.

” We must be a country of institutions not only governments. The government and the parliament are not the state they are just parts of it, so to suggest that all hell will break loose when either the government or the parliament are controlled by islamists is a bit of an extreme assumption to make.

On a side note, do you really think that islamists are concerned with the local issues of the country? They have been allies to the regimes since forever. Actually their presence, in my opinion, is one of the major hurdles blocking reform in Jordan. They offer some citizens a disengaged alternative. In a way they are the management of the hotel “حشد ورباط”. They offer a “temporary” sense of belonging to a marginalized segment of the jordanian society.”

as i mentioned above , after looking back at their history and their doctrines, there is no evidence that the islamists would just go away quietly , as for their concern with local issues, one has to look at how maysoon ( a cartoon character in arabic text books for elementary grades) now wears the hijab , ( back in my days she was your avg 8-12 school girl ) , not even Prince Hasan managed to stop that.

the islamists are no longer allies to the regime, over the past decades there have been plenty of clashes and crackdowns and confrontations between both sides, they have even resulted in splitting the islamic brotherhood to two parties, the events of the first iraq war have politicized the movement, the closing of hamas headquarters in amman was another factor, the peace treaty with isreal, the passing away of king hussein, etc etc have really changed the relationship between the two and i dont think you can make the statement that they are allies. At least not today.

Again I think that we agree more than we disagree. The injection of god and religion into politics adds “holy” and “sacred” dimensions thus making opposition a type of heresy. Iran provides an timely example, where their regime labeled opposition as enemies of allah. What I am saying is that in Jordan we have institutions that can and should be molded to serve the country and provide the necessary checks and balances on any governing entity. The Judicial branch, the security apparatus, the press, and we the people shouldn't be viewed as spectators, even when we are simply making assumptions.

And you said it best when you said at the end of your comment “At least not today”. The regime enabled and strengthened the brotherhood. They provided an environment where such movements can flourish, just like they are doing now with the salafi movement in salt,irbid,karak, and ma'an. The ministry of education was given as a gift from the late king hussein to the brotherhood. In the effort to stop the leftist “invasion”, the brotherhood provided the “perfect” counter balance entity to stop those “godless” commies..And now we are paying the price, thanks to such policies.

Also, when I said “local issues” I was referring to the economic and social well being of Jordanian. The veiled maysoon, just proves my point that they are more concerned with irrelevant issues. But the again, they do believe that when maysoon is not veiled ,god will not be happy with the whole society.

well consider this, as a member of the union, any union you have to take an oath to boycott israel, now what if that person did not want to boycott Israel ? do u have a right not to? no you dont , how do we expect the opposition to be any better than the current govts that we get if they are as oppressive and totalaitarian amongst themselves? the unions and the islamists are the largest opposition groups and judging from their behavior I dont see how they will fare any better, the danger with them of course is that much like any arab president, if they get to power they will not let go off it .

the support that the govt gave to the brotherhood is not entirely responsible for the rise of Islamists that we see in Jordan , those more extreme elements have outside influences that are far beyond the states ability to combat.the saudi influence on ma'an is a prime example of such examples, where islamic groups outside the jurisdiction of the brotherhood and the regime have shaped up the more extreme islamis groups in Jordan. the leadership , the one that has the long his of cooperative policy with the regime remains as moderate as it ever was and this is illustrated by the fact that they reject the more extreme factions, the fact that they actively participate in conferences that promote the type of moderate Islam that with reason and sensibility function in secular state.

one could argue that if the islamists were oppressed like they were in Egypt and Syria and Iraq then they would have turned violent and extreme, just as what has happened in the above mentioned countries. I think leaving them room to operate within reason remains a major reason why Jordan is still doing ok in terms of religious freedoms, relationships between muslims and christians , specially when compared to others in the region.

back to the issue it is , with the quality you have in the opposition ranks today, nothing indicates that there will be any real change should there be different laws for elections, i presented my case with numerous examples .

cheers

Now,lets get back to the main topic and forget about the islamists, for now :)