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Jordanian Citizenship Revoked: The Human Toll Of Politics

February 7, 2010 Comments

MIDEAST JORDAN PALESTINIANS DAILY LIFE
Words By: Mohanned

“Jordan is playing politics with the basic rights of thousands of its citizens, Officials are denying entire families the ability to lead normal lives with the sense of security that most citizens of a country take for granted.”
[source]

Those people are human. Politicians sometimes tend to forget that and speak of them as mere numbers. They view people and their livelihoods as a way or a tool to send a message. For them, those people are just another card in their deck of political playing cards.

In reality, two thousand seven hundred and thirty two Jordanians had their nationality stripped between 2004-2008. Their lives are irrelevant because their feelings don’t serve the bigger agenda. Their future? Well, it’s theirs and theirs alone. So who cares? Why should we care? Why should the government care if we, the people, didn’t care?

Enter: empathy deficiency disorder.

What many of us tend to forget is that relativity and ratios dehumanize us. They make numbers look “less” real than they actually are. We become desensitized. We take injustice as a fact of life. For some of us, injustice inflicted on others is, well, tough luck! Life is unfair. True. But what makes it unfair?

Luck? I believe not.

Fate? Don’t think so.

We do.

What if twenty-some women lost their lives each year for “honor”? Does it really matter? The lives of twenty women in a nation of six million are negligible. They are not a priority. They don’t touch and affect enough lives. Our lives.

What makes a life negligible? What makes a human experience less than relevant? What can make a child’s dreams and hopes for the future more relevant to us? How can we care again? How can we overcome this empathy deficiency disorder?

Look beyond the numbers. Try to see the suffering. Try to understand how others feel.

Be them.

So yes, the Jordanian government might call it a “correction”. They might even paint it with the “protecting your national identity” brush.

You don’t solve problems by creating problems. You don’t achieve justice by inflicting injustice on others. You are not protecting by adding suffering. What some might call an inconvenience is a human being feeling injustice. A human being treated unfairly. A human being paying the price for something he/she didn’t do.

So to the Jordanian government: you are making these people’s lives irrelevant. Shame on you and shame on those of us who rationalize injustice and suffering.

- The sixty page report can be found here.
- Related Post: Jordan’s Slow Discrimination

  • Lina
    Dear Maha,
    I also have a long post to tell you about my version of the story and why I always say that yes we are all guilty, I haven’t said that Jordanians of Eastern Jordanian origins are guilty and responsible, I repeatedly say that we are all guilty.
    As a start, I would like you to know that I am always arguing with Jordanians of Palestinian origins who don’t introduce themselves as Jordanians, to your surprise ( maybe), I argue and mention the same points you have mentioned, that you have lived your entire life, you have been given a home, citizenship, equality in some aspects and a lot more, you have everything it takes to call it home and that never means you have to forget about your origins.
    I used to say I am Jordanian, but when people insist on knowing my original hometown, I say I am Jordanian of a Palestinian origin, I never say I am not Jordanian, you have to believe me when I say that I am infuriated by people who say no I am not Jordanian, I only hold the passport and cite examples or reasons to justify this feeling. I always tell them that yes, we do experience inequality but that is a problem that both sides have created and both sides have been feeding, then we argue endlessly about what is action and what is a reaction, which is pointless because we are all guilty.
    Yes, as a Jordanian of a Palestinian origin, before expecting to be treated equally I must say that I am Jordanian, I have been talking about this issue for ages, I have been convincing people of my point for ages, but again, if I tell you I am Jordanian and I apply for a governmental job and you trace my origins, that’s where you start making mistakes.
    If I say I am a Jordanian and I am willing to contribute to its development and you don’t give me a chance, you keep on arguing and making me feel inferior, if you think I shouldn’t criticize anything that you are constantly criticizing, because I have been taking advantage of what I am not entitled to, then here is another mistake.
    If I say I am a Jordanian, then a Jordanian of a Palestinian origin commits a sin and you start generalizing, saying that I am not appreciating what you give me, then you’re making a mistake.
    My point is, if I say it is my homeland, stop giving me the looks, because it means I am Jordanian too, it is my homeland and no one is doing me a favor.
    So what I want you to understand is that I have been following your advice and still on a daily basis, I interact with people who make me feel inferior, again, I am not generalizing but I mean that you have to understand that even if some people refer to themselves as Jordanian, they’re still treated as inferior, their allegiance is questioned every day, I mean since I say I am Jordanian, it means I do feel allegiance so why do you have to be this skeptical? Why do I have to be accused before committing any mistake?
    I am not justifying anything, I am irritated by those who don’t say they are Jordanian, who don’t show the tiniest bit of respect, I argue endlessly with them, I do that on almost a daily basis but I also understand that they have encountered so many situations that have shaped their perspectives, sometimes oppression, sometimes inequality and a lot more, again, I am not saying that they are right but I am only saying that they have their experiences but still they shouldn’t react this way.
    I also want to add that during the elections for the students’ council, I wanted to vote for a candidate who didn’t run for these chauvinistic views, I found a candidate and started approaching people to tell them that we need to move forwards, we need to move past these tensions and he was a Jordanian student who is from al Tafilah and I absolutely had no problem with it, I had too many discussions with complete strangers, they kept on asking me why I was exerting that effort and if I am from al Tafilah, I used to answer “ No, I am Jordanian of a Palestinian origin, if you love Jordan, we have to overcome the tribalism issue, you have to look at the bigger image, you have to serve the entire community, etc. “. While so many people agreed with me secretly, they had to show different interests publicly because of the pressure they encounter from people who hail from the same hometowns.
    I guess I am doing my part and engaging in productive debates whenever I have the chance to serve Jordan ( my country) and to share my version of the story so that you don’t have to keep on holding to misconceptions about Jordanians of Palestinian origins, yes they should say they are Jordanian but Jordanians should accept that fact and should treat them as fellow Jordanians without again reminding them every day of what they call favors and I call my natural right because I am Jordanian. I have a duty to fulfill and it must serve the interests of Jordan and not a certain segment because they did a favor, that’s what I mean, I hope you’ll understand the point.
    Now, as for the Casablanca protocol, as far as I know it was in 1965, while the East bank and West bank formed one country in 1950. The constitution for this united country was issued in 1952 and they became Jordanians, article 6 of the constitution safeguarded the rights of all citizens because it prohibited any discrimination that is based on origin, religion, gender, etc.
    Again, I am just saying that these people are Jordanians, now if they realize and admit this, this is a different story, if they’re being the ideal citizens, that’s an entirely different topic. If you really believe that they’re being treated equally, please drop the favors’ issue.
    About the Palestinian question, I believe that it is something that we can all identify with because it is a cause of justice, Jordanians do realize this and I can name a long list of people who are serving the cause. So there is also another dimension, because Jordanians of Palestinian origins also bear responsibilities towards Jordan and Palestine, they have to contribute in Jordan but in their case, they also have to do something for Palestine, Jordanians can do something also and they have been doing so for decades, any Arab, any citizen of any country can help and that is actually happening, people from all over the world are expressing solidarity with the Palestinian people.
    One last note, I am not attacking you personally, trust me, I do understand your point, but please take the time to listen to my version of the story, I can’t say that you’re not wrong on so many points because you’re definitely right, but you don’t have the whole story, I lend you a part so that we can overcome this issue.
    I still have so much to say about the civil war, etc, but that is enough for now.
    Please think of what I am saying, I guess that others can identify with this. Thank you for expressing your concerns, you’re also giving me the chance to express mine so that we can all have an equal chance to overcome this dilemma.
  • Musa
    إستمرارية النظام بشكله الدكتاتوري الشمولي الحالي يقتضي وجود كتلتين سكانيتين محايدتين تماماً. فيتم إقناع احداهمها أنها المستفيدة من النظام الحالي فتتغاضى عن فساده وإقناع الاخرى أن فساد النظام لا يعنيها بإعتبار وجودها مؤقت ومشروط. ومن حين لاخر يتم تهديد الكتلتين الواحدة بالاخرى لإظهار النظام بمظهر المدافع عن حقوق (ومكاسب المنتفعين والطفيليات من كلا الكتلتين) كل منهما في وجه الاخرى. هنا تنشأ مناظرات عبثيه معظمها تنزلق إلى مستوى السخف تؤدي إلى غض النظر عن التحدي المشترك الذي يواجه كل السكان من شتى الاصول والمنابت. تحدي ينحصر في قدرتهم على توفير مستوى معيشي للنظام (وتحديداً لرأسيه وحاشيتهما) لا يتناسب نهائياً مع موارد الدولة أو امكانات هؤلاء السكان والإستمرار بدعم وإعالة ودعم نظام كليبتوكراطي يفتقر إلى الحد الأدنى من المصداقيه تحت اي معيار.
  • nas k
    the problem with the above arguement , is the following, remove this nitham, what will happen?

    one only has to look at the institutions and individuals that the govt or the regime has no control over, such as the big private sector companies and how little they do to benefit soceity ,the low wages they pay, the way we treat foreign workers and the poor, the way we liter the street, the way we drive, the way we close roads to pray on fridays, the way we marry, the way we vote , they way we organize,the way we cheat , lie, backstab and corss over each other. the shooting at wedding , the carnival each time the tawjeehi results are out.

    look at the way that opposition leaders were treated in jordan , specially back in the day, officers and politicians who conspired to over throw the regime, what used to happen to them? they were usually rewarded with high positions in the govt , and what did they do when they got there???
  • Raed al zighel
    By revoking citizenships; the seeds of civil war are being spread. Just as what happened in Lebanon, Aljeers and Iraq. Every country of these was prepared for civil war using a unique tactic. For Jordan ; it's the palestinian vs jordanian approach.
  • nas k
    Jordan is not Lebanon, Iraq or Algeria. simple as.
  • Lina
    Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore: I agree with you, we also have to understand the diverse nature of the Jordanian society, which doesn’t have to be used to arouse tensions, on the contrary, (although their voices are rarely heard ), many people are suggesting solutions to the identity’s dilemma, they’re calling for a unified identity for all of us, so that we can have one identity and diversified sub-cultures, which will ( as I personally believe ) make Jordan move past these tensions.
    It is also important to know that these tensions don’t only alienate Jordanians of Palestinian origins, it also harms Jordan because it makes some people feel that their allegiance should be for the tribe, the very original hometown, sometimes a particular neighborhood and they fail to see the bigger image, they fail to see that they should be productive members of the Jordanian society at large. This shall never be perceived as racist, as I don’t have the slightest feeling of racism against any creed, but this is rather a fact which you can conclude from the fights that take place on campus and other manifestations of tribalism.
    Note: I am not against feeling pride for being part of any group, entity, anything, I am just talking about an entirely different and unacceptable manifestation of improper values, so please don’t start attacking me personally for this. Analysts do realize and some are tackling this issue on a regular basis to show the public that we need to change ( for the better ).
    I am not an expert on any issue, I don’t have the ultimate solution but I am just saying what I think I have a responsibility to explain because at the end of the day, I am Jordanian and I have a responsibility to contribute to its development, I can’t shut my mouth when I know that these conversations will have a great impact on people’s mindsets and their decisions which will also have an impact on the future of the kingdom (my homeland ).
    Maha: yes, I would like to hear it, but I kindly ask you to think of what I wrote, think of my perspective and keep in mind that I am not attacking Jordan, I am not even criticizing any person of any creed, I am trying my best to stay objective and please remember that Jordan is my country just like it is yours, I am equally irritated when anyone starts attacking it.
  • Maha
    Dear Lina,
    As a Jordanian, i will present you with some of my issues with some groups who are Palestinian Jordanians like many indiv that commented here. When I've met Palestinians outside of Jordan, they always introduce themselves as Palestinians, which is great, until I learn that many of them only hold a Jordanian citizenship and have lived there their entire childhood, never have been to Palestine and don't have a single good thing to say about Jordan, some are even offended by being called a Jordanian. Why? do they have no respect, appreciation, or tiny bits of belonging to a place that has given them a home and a citizenship? When these same individuals visit Jordan they are offended by the policeman who stops them and asks them where they're from, and complain about racism, and how they should be equals cause they hold the passport. How hypocritical is that? If you behave that way then you are not a Jordanian you are a Jordanian passport holder. Unfortunately i've had to defend my country in too many discussions from vicious criticism by Palestinian Jordanians too many times, my default is no longer "this is constructive criticism by a concerned fellow citizen" Prove your loyalty first then i will hear you criticize the country, and this has happened enough times for me to generalize.
    Just think how a Jordanian feels when he shares his homeland with people who curse it.

    Another thing that pisses me off, go ahead bash the government and everyone in it,BUT respect the men and women who are the sons and daughters of those backwards Bedouins who serve and protect the country, cause they are doing their job well, and they have every damn right to crack down on recruitment holes that breed youth that just wants to blow stuff up and stick it up to the man. If it wasn't for all those privacy invading jerks we would've had so many attacks and threats, it's not a phony scare tactic.
    Why does a Jor-Pal has to prove his loyalty and a Jordanian doesn't? a Jordanian has no interests any where else and is less swayable by parties that play the emotional card of "Alquds 7orra" "Americans are raping iraq" every occasion they get, operating from Jordan without a single meaningful item on their agenda that has to do with a general Jordanian issue like economics or healthcare, Ya seedi inshallah falas6een 7orra wil iraq 7orr, bas ma tekhreb baity in the process, don't lose perspective of what harms Jordan in light of other causes you believe in.

    Most of my resentment is a backlash to comments from Palestinians. If you want an example read the many comments by zeidinio. these same comments can be read all over Arab and Jordanian forums and news sites. Jordan and the Royal family are the reason we lost Palestine they are traitors in bed with the Jews, Jordanians are racist like the Jews, Jordanians benefit from the plight of the Palestinians, Palestinians are more civilized than Bedouins, Palestinians alone built this country. How do you expect a Jordanian to respect a fellow Jordanian who says all that, Why should i respect and trust a fellow Jord who would sell Jordan for the Palestinian cause. It is never an either or dilemma unless you're one of the extremists who will jeopardize the security of Jordan for floaty dreams of Jerusalem. We have a shared history together some of it is black, the poison runs decades later, i've seen the profanity that bag3awi drunks target Wasfi el Tal's place with. We almost had a civil war in Jordan because groups have different priorities. If you want to be a citizen of a place you're priority should be Here first, There later. Wherever here and there may be. Love Palestine as much as you can but love Jordan too and keep in mind that today Jordan comes first cause that's where you live. Palestinians and Jordanian Palestinians in Kuwait were kicked out in less than 48 hours for sacrificing their homes in Kuwait and not respecting the country they are in. Simply cause Kuwait wasn't their priority.

    Over and over I hear it from Jor- Pali old and young if we were in our homeland our lives would be better and I will make my country a paradise. They mentally live a temporary life here, look at the great success some Palestinians families have had here financially and politically, those people lived here like this is the only place they can be, giving and taking, not just taking till further notice. A poor Palestinian will resent Jordan whereas a poor Jordanian is more likely to resent poverty first. There are Jordanians who live in conditions worse than those in refugee camps but are loyal to this country.

    If you want to be here, be actively and positively here not just cause you can’t be anywhere else. If you feel that you were forced to come to Bedouin land and hate this backwards place, then you are a second class citizen that only holds Jordanian travel documents emphatically given to you by the backwards backstabbing Hashemites and Bedouins on chivalrous whim ma3 ta7meel jmeeleh. Seriously if you can’t love this country then get the hell out and see who else is going to be kind and tolerant enough to take you in. Your Nakbeh was being forced out of Palestine NOT being welcomed into Jordan. Legally giving Palestinians equal citizenship to Jordanians is above and beyond the Casablanca protocol and beyond what anyone else has given, it is not something they are historically entitled to, Jordan is not responsible to compensate Palestinians for the Israeli occupation. Start talking to us with more appreciation and less entitlement and we won’t say that as a favor we give you citizenship, the door swings both ways.
  • Mohanned
    Congratulations. This is your first step toward a slow,but hopefully, full recovery. You offer us a good insight into the psychology of a disgruntled Jordanian with a skewed view of reality.I won't be able to educate you, but maybe a bit of history reading with an open mind will set you free.
  • nas k
    do u seriously have any other responses besides calling people name and u calling on them to go read history.

    what a diva
  • Mohanned
    watevaa..
  • Hassan
    Maha,
    Would you please be so kind as to address the issue of, the Palestinian-Jordanian who is not allowed to call himself Jordanian. When they introduce themselves as Jordanian they are asked "but where are you from originally?"
    Thanks,
  • Maha
    The problem Jordanian Palestinians have with the "Where are you originally from" is that they think they are the only ones asked, that they are targeted unlike anyone else and make a big deal out of the question. Walk a mile in my shoes.
    My Jordanian ID card has the words امريكا and مسيحية on it.I have much more explaining and convincing to do than your average Palestinian Jordanian, not only do i get "where are you from" i also get "what the hell are you doing here" ? it doesn't cause me an identity crisis or offends me at heart, I'm Jordanian and i know where my allegiances are. i even have to deal with "you are not Jordanian you technically can't even call yourself Arab". Imagine 900 years later and i have to discuss whether I'm a crusader or Arab, and you think it's horrible that 60 years later you have to answer a question and maybe deal with someone looking at you funny. There is a lot of ignorance from all kinds of people. The question or your technical answer to it doesn't define if you are a Jordanian or not neither does your ID card, where your allegiance lies does.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    No one should attack you for voicing your opinion. Part of the dilemma for all Arabs is that they're not used to or allowed freedom of expression. What goodness is there in any identity if you can't be free to think. Jordan is still a young nation and as such is going through soul searching and as such we as Jordanians have got to walk the line carefully so we don't spoil it for everyone. If you think and write so well and a country doesn't see in you an asset, believe me, you're better off no being within its borders any way. Jordan isn't that and does appreciate and minds and it is by far a better place to live and work in than any of the Arab countries; I say this from having lived in different Arab countries. Give it time.
  • lina
    I tried my best to forget about it but honestly I couldn’t even sleep so I had to leave this comment. I have so much to say about each comment but I don’t want to delve into details, I don’t want to sound like a racist because I don’t think that anything will harm Jordan like racism.
    1. I do understand that it is not a simple issue, there is no black or white and there isn’t a magical solution that can have it solved overnight. But it is important for us to trade places with each other and try to see the issue from other perspectives. Without accusations, without taking one of the extremes, I honestly believe that the majority of columnists who tackle this issue in the press, ( I am not referring to the HRW report, I am talking about the identity’s issue in general), tend to be overwhelmed with some phobias, their fears are often unjustified and the solutions they suggest can only oppress millions as a result. I wish I could read for one writer who can speak of the concerns of both sides without bias, I wish someone would write “ I am a Jordanian of a Palestinian origin, I understand the concerns about the identity’s issue and the implications it may have on Jordan, but I want to say that I am also a Jordanian citizen and I think you should take my account into consideration,…..”, I mean I would love to hear from someone who is actually willing to tackle his/her rights and duties as a citizen while at the same time addressing the other side’s concerns so that we can avoid the endless racist debates ( I am not referring to this particular debate). Similarly, I wish to hear from a person, who is Jordanian of eastern Jordanian origins, I wish some could address their fears and keep in mind that there are Jordanians of Palestinian origins whose constitutional rights must be safeguarded, and all of them (including the political rights).
    2. Reading the comments, ( I , again, don’t want to get personal on this ), I have this feeling that some of you still can’t understand that Jordan can be a natural homeland for Jordanians of Palestinian origins, ( apart from “watan badeel” propaganda), so when a Jordanian of a Palestinian origin criticizes Jordan, it’s because he/she is just expressing an opinion, having a say about policies that affect our lives, because we bear the toll of these policies just like any other citizen in the kingdom. I guess you all criticize corruption, the illegal acts and many other phenomena that we suffer from, but you still want to be a member of this country and want to see a comprehensive reform, don’t you?
    I mean, why do we always have to trace origins when it comes to criticism? I criticize because I feel pure allegiance towards Jordan and would love to see a prosperous future for this country so I don’t have to see all those looks, ( that I am inferior and don’t have the right to criticize), I am a citizen ( at least I consider myself to be recognized as a citizen ) and I want to see these problems solved and I would love to help, this has nothing to do with my origins.
    I still have so much to say, but I don’t want to delve into the details of this issue, I understand it is a complicated one, I understand the difficulties, but again, I am sure that maintaining the status quo isn’t justified, we can always find solutions but if we drop some attitudes, if we leave aside our chauvinistic views, ( from both sides ), if we can actually understand that Jordanians of Palestinian origins acquired the nationality legally and therefore enjoy the rights legally without anyone feeling that they did a favor.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Yours is indeed a voice of reason and compassion. Jordanians should be crowned as one of, if not the, the world's most tolerant cultures (and this includes those of Palestinian origins). This has been proven over and over again; with the Cherkasians and Cheshens, the Iraqis, the '67 and '48 Palestinians and others (I'm one of them). Jordanians did keep their doors open to those who found no shelter and were more than willing to share their destiny with the other. When Gaza went under the Israeli hammer and fell under a siege, the Egyptians further suffocated Palestinians while a Jordanian Prince oversaw the delivery of aid in Gaza and when George Galloway led his aid caravan Viva Palestina through Jordan, the Aqabites opened their doors and served them food; the examples abound.

    All Jordanians are deservedly mad at the lack of cooperation from this hypocritical world (including some Arab nations), which refuses to move a finger against Israel's never ending atrocities. I have no doubt in my mind that this issue would resolve into a policy that would further empower Jordan in the eyes of the world and as such ultimately also benefit Palestinians. After all we do share one destiny as our consecutive leaderships have always said.

    In previous posts I might have sounded rather pessimistic, but I'm recourse-ing as I see more clearly now. With nasty enemies like them Zionists, power through unity is the best remedy.
  • Maha
    Got a long one, do you wanna hear it ?
  • zeidinio
    الى الجميع

    "معركتنا مع امريكا واسرائيل هي حول التعويض وليس حق العودة"
    صائب عريقات

    هذا ما قاله صائب عريقات في منتدى الدستور بتاريخ 22-6-09
    شاهدوا الفيديو للتأكد
    http://www.jordandays.tv/video.aspx?VidId=682
    مدة الفيديو دقيقتان فقط
  • Tarawnah
    This is an interesting news report on Ammon today regarding this issue: http://ow.ly/14Wow
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Interesting indeed and one wonders what really is going on? Again lack of transparency is what stirs what possibly is a tempest in a teapot!
  • Maha
    empathy deficient heartless pricks how outrageous of them to ask people to file the right paperwork ...7aram Palestinians have it so so bad in Jordan
  • zeidinio
    وهل عقاب عدم اتمام المعاملة الورقية هو سحب الجنسية؟؟؟!!!

    الا تستطيع الحكومة فرض غرامة مالية ؟

    يا مها؟
  • Firas
    sarcasm?
    wow.
    How...predictable.
  • zeidinio
    هذا لايعني على الاطلاق بأن سحب جنسية 2700 أردني هو تصرف سليم
    لعبة الأرقام لا تعني بالضرورة تثبيت العدالة و أخلاقية القرار
  • nas k
    and we live to fight another day brother, its a cruel world
  • nas k
    Jorpal, while I agree with your sentiment, we have to be real here, we are far detached from that world, there are borders today ,and these borders are indeed real ( gaza and egypt?) we cant stand each other and it has little to do with politics( look how we treat egyptians here in jordan) , this is the world and situation we have inherited and thats the world that we have to operate in.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    "Tribes with flags;" that what the English used to call us when they occupied us and it remains true to this day. It's a sad day.
  • Tarawnah
    Israel is also considered a tribe with a flag. in other words, neither the tribe nor the flag make or break a state in this day and age.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    To the contrary, they sell the tribe bit to us but in reality they are one of the most democratic and liberal "breeds" in this world.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    There's a certain curious history that many don't know about: Many Jordanian families left to live in Palestine in the past because it was where trade and good life once flourished, where education was found, food and water were plenty. Many Syrian and Lebanese families would also go there to learn and some would relocate to Northern Palestine because it thrived. There were no borders then; we were all under one sky.

    I've learned this after cooperating on a study with an American anthropologist who showed me all the evidence one could ask for; she counted 17 villages populated by families that originated in the East Bank and she said many more existed. In fact among Palestinian villagers it is common to denominate some families as of Badu origins and others of Falahi origins until this day. Those same families had come back to Jordan many years ago as Palestinians. Palestinians too are of many different origins like any other nation; they are of Syrian background, Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Yemeni, Kurdish, Cherkesian, Chechen; even Italian, French and Greek; etc. The moral of all of this is that our separation isn't because of natural borders and had only happened because we were defeated and succumbed to the victor's whims.

    Decades later, it seems that we still are defeated, seeking petty identities that at the end will only serve to destroy our fabric and serve our enemies. Our identity is not what is being tested today, it is our civility and collective intelligence as a nation of humans with a joined destiny.
  • Tarawnah
    It is interesting for me to see this conversation evolve, and I get the slight feeling that most are basing their perspectives on emotions, as opposed to addressing the issue at hand. In other words, I somewhat doubt that most of you here have actually read the HRW report.

    I've read it several times and to be quite frank, it depicts a situation that is far beyond the simple conclusions some of you here are trying to draw or that which the international media has depicted, which is whittled down to the simplicity of: the jordanian government is out to get palestinians by revoking their jordanian citizenship and leaving them stateless. In other words, if anyone's actually read the report they'd know the situation is incredibly complex and obviously not applicable to the overwhelming majority of jordanians of palestinian origin.

    The report depicts a situation where Jordanian control of west bank is relinquished to the PA during a time when there was an effort to strengthen Arafat's position of authority. But there is a great deal of bureaucracy entwined here that includes yellow cards, green cards, two-year passports, five-year passports...and to add to that...Oslo and other political offerings. And on and on and on. Much of that complexity is outlined in part 2 of the report: http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87905/section/4

    Jordan has forever been in a difficult position regarding the palestinian question, specifically with regards to right of return and refugee status of people living within its borders, to say nothing of its disengagement from the west bank. It is, for some odd reason, also being held responsible for those who are originally from Gaza even though Gazans were historically under Egyptian jurisdiction (and we can see the Egyptian result today). To add to all this have been those caught in the cross-fire, which includes Jordanian women who are unable to pass on their citizenship to their kids for having married non-Jordanians.

    The right of return is an important issue and cannot be ignored. It is naturally in Israel's long-term interest to see the Jordanian government grant citizenship to all Palestinians, and as someone mentioned earlier, that movement has long ago been established, especially by the Israeli right, which happens to be in power now. This, as I assume most of us would agree, is in no one's interest, except for the Israelis.

    Whether it is the Jordanian government's ongoing effort to "correct" the system that was established post 1988 (the revoking of these citizenships have been happening for a long time and the reason they garner any attention now is because of their increase) - or if it is the government's attempt to send a political message that the Kingdom will not be viewed as an alternative homeland (an agenda that has been pushed to the surface in Israel recently) - it is essentially wrong to play politics with people's lives. So on that, I agree with Mohanned (although I disagree with the poetic depiction of the situation).

    So we come to the crossroad, the underlying assumption that those who carry some form of citizenship - in the form of a temporary passport or otherwise - should not legally have it based on the evolution of political history. It is this small minority of the population that the government views as having a status that threatens the greater good (and I emphasize the word status here; not the people themselves). If we accept such assumptions we require a solution that caters to both: a group of people who require legal status, a government that does not accept the alternative homeland movement, and a population of people entitled to negotiate for their right of return.

    Granting these people residencies that allow them to be mobile, work, be educated, etc., would likely solve the problem. To what extent this could be a comprehensive approach is beyond my knowledge. I can see it working for a great deal of the children of Jordanian women married to non-Jordanians, I can see it working for many of the people outlined in the HRW report, but I can see its complications when dealing with refugee camp residents who are tied to the international renderings of the UN.

    In short, I think our focus throughout this debate should be on finding solutions as opposed to launching attacks. I find irony in anyone who argues their right to a Jordanian citizenship while in the same breath depicting the country he or she so vailently wants to be considered a member of as a lawless state. There's a word for that.

    Finding solutions require understanding the problem, which includes the history, the politics and everything in between that we seem to prefer to dismiss in favor of appealing to what we personally, simply "feel" is the right thing to do; in favor of poetry.

    Governments often campaign in poetry, but to get anything done, they have to govern in prose.
  • Maha
    Look at the bigger picture
    Among 10 other "recommendations" Jordan is expected to "Work toward an equitable and just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem within the framework of international law." Does anyone have a suggestion? Mohannad can you suggest something other than empathy? How about they amend international law to recognize Palestine as a start.

    AND
    To the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority
    * Pending such a solution, the Government of Israel should ensure that Jordanians of Palestinian origin and Palestinians living in Jordan are not removed from the population registry in the Occupied Territories, including East Jerusalem, and should consider including persons of Palestinian descent born in Jordan in the population registry as a matter of humanitarian concern. (This is the big problem!!)

    The world and it's international organizations have done nothing to the Palestinian refugee problem but offer handouts and occasional empathy, instead of exercising any pressure on Israel or the rest of the world to recognize Palestine and Palestinians all over the world and stop kicking Palestinians out of Jerusalem. They are not stateless if you recognize their state. facilitating documents can be issued by Jordan but only after the world recognizes Palestinians.
    But hey since international law fails over and over in taking measures against Israel for human right violations then we can do what everyone else does with HRW reports ..Flush it down the toilet. cause again i repeat..Jordan is in compliance with human rights on this citizenship issue if the world recognizes Palestine.
    The HRW and apparently many people discussing the issue don't recognize the Jordanian humanitarian efforts on the Palestinian issue.

    BTW the HRW report has reviewed a staggering number of revoked citizenship cases.. a total of 11 cases!!!
  • Mohanned
    This is the first part of my reply. It was eaten when I pressed submit so here is goes:

    "It is interesting for me to see this conversation evolve, and I get the slight feeling that most are basing their perspectives on emotions, as opposed to addressing the issue at hand."

    Stripping the issue from its emotional dress doesn't make it less wrong. I am also not sure as to what you mean by emotions. Feeling outraged that some people lives changed over night. Feeling outraged when reading their stories.

    "I've read it several times and to be quite frank, it depicts a situation that is far beyond the simple conclusions some of you here are trying to draw or that which the international media has depicted, which is whittled down to the simplicity of: the jordanian government is out to get palestinians by revoking their jordanian citizenship and leaving them stateless. In other words, if anyone's actually read the report they'd know the situation is incredibly complex and obviously not applicable to the overwhelming majority of jordanians of palestinian origin."

    Not really. A speech by a king used as the "legal" reason behind the "correction". I mean are they a mistake? Or where they given the citizenship by mistake? How do such measures affect the way other Jordanians from Palastenian origin feel? How will it affect their productivity and the contributions they make to Jordan? What kind of message do such measures send to us, the citizens? Or does the government only care about sending messages to israel and the west? Don't forget the fact that the government treat the whole society as an entity incapable of making any decisions, or for that matter to even treat us as a herd who doesn't need to know about what decisions are made and how will they affect us. So it is not only about the issue at hand, it is about a trend, it is about a policy of treating citizens as mere passive numbers.

    The "complexity" of the issue at hand doesn't mean that we have to be less "emotional" when discuss.ing it. It is complex not because of the people but because of the politics, thus the people shouldn't pay the price. As simple as that.

    "Jordan has forever been in a difficult position regarding the palestinian question,"

    Jordan as in? The regime? The government? The east bankers? Who exactly? Then again, the regime made historical decisions which seem to affect every aspect of our lives in the present and the future.

    "The right of return is an important issue and cannot be ignored. It is naturally in Israel's long-term interest to see the Jordanian government grant citizenship to all Palestinians, and as someone mentioned earlier, that movement has long ago been established, especially by the Israeli right, which happens to be in power now. This, as I assume most of us would agree, is in no one's interest, except for the Israelis."

    The right of return shouldn't be used as an excuse,even indirectly, to rationalize unfair decision. The historic context of the late King hussein speech must be brought into the discussion,also in the peace treaty the king insisted on the Hashemites having a role in Jerusalem,though I am not sure what was in his mind. To "correct some mistakes" that only became "mistakes" after a speech is just preposterous!
  • Tarawnah
    "Feeling outraged that some people lives changed over night. Feeling outraged when reading their stories"

    outrage is a common reaction. but when it comes to analyzing a report and the repercussions of public policy, it's usually not a good idea to form perspectives based on purely emotional responses. it erodes objectivity.

    "So it is not only about the issue at hand, it is about a trend, it is about a policy of treating citizens as mere passive numbers. The "complexity" of the issue at hand doesn't mean that we have to be less "emotional" when discuss.ing it. It is complex not because of the people but because of the politics, thus the people shouldn't pay the price. As simple as that."

    give me a government that doesn't do that. all your questions are valid, however my argument here specifically is that emotional responses have the danger of simplifying a matter and whittling it down to a simple conclusion, when it is an issue that's as far from simple as can be imagined.

    "Jordan as in? The regime? The government? The east bankers? Who exactly? "

    all of the above.

    "The right of return shouldn't be used as an excuse,even indirectly, to rationalize unfair decision."

    i dont think its an excuse. let me clarify it: if this is truly the reasoning behind it, if this whole issue revolves around this central issue, which has generally been the line of reasoning for the state since i can remember or at least long before this report came about - then it is a valid reasoning. to a government that deals in abstractions as all governments do, this is a policy meant to preserve the right of return issue, which has been at the core of palestinian-israeli negotiations since before time...and by the same measure, it is also a policy that avoids the naturalization of more people within its own borders (although for a population of 6 million, of where at least half are of palestinian origin, i would argue that several hundred people are not going to break this camel's back)

    lastly, addressing this over-simplification again...i think you and i both know that this goes well, well, beyond a mere speech.

    Or, to put it in your own words: whom are we kidding...?
  • Mohanned
    " it erodes objectivity."
    I am not sure as to what you mean by objectivity, especially when one is not talking about variables but rather humans with lives. "Objectivity" when talking about people strips the issue from its humane aspects. It puts us on a slippery slope. I am not sure how to further explain what I am trying to say, but to make it clear: Humans are not simply objects. The complexity,the relevance, and the importance of one human live can't and shouldn't be measured.

    "all of the above."
    The above aren't one entity. Different goals. Different routes. Different strategic objectives. Different view of the world. So we can't just lump them together, especially when the regime doesn't represent how the people feel,think,and the way they want things to be run. In the absence of true representation,different entities,are simply different. They work toward differing goals.
  • Mohanned
    "It is this small minority of the population that the government views as having a status that threatens the greater good (and I emphasize the word status here; not the people themselves).

    I am not sure who defines "greater good". The entity that has the power to do so can do whatever it wants, thus it becomes,just like religion, mainly a tool not a goal. And using the word minority is no different from ratios. What it does is that it makes the issue at hand sound less serious. It makes the "minority" less relevant.

    It is quite interesting that many are not willing to challenge many of the strongly held assumptions by the elite and those who are trying to maintain the status quo. The fact that many leaders are trying to sell us that israel will peacefully allow millions to return is just plain deception, aimed at doping the masses. The fact that our politicians chose bending over as the best approach to foreign policy and we are not even able to challenge them is another proof that they are just playing politics. Whom are we kidding?


    "I find irony in anyone who argues their right to a Jordanian citizenship while in the same breath depicting the country he or she so vailently wants to be considered a member of as a lawless state. There's a word for that."

    Again, it depends on how you define the state. I love my country, but I hate some of the policies the regime is pursuing.


    Other than that, I agree ;)
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Well said
  • Tarawnah
    "What it does is that it makes the issue at hand sound less serious. It makes the "minority" less relevant"

    that is a matter of perception...yours to be specific...as opposed to its true meaning, i.e. the number of people who this effects represent a small portion of the whole society. is that not true? if you feel that this fact erodes from its seriousness, then you've missed the tone of my comment.

    "The fact that many leaders are trying to sell us that israel will peacefully allow millions to return is just plain deception, aimed at doping the masses. "

    mind you, the right of return is a palestinian issue. it is on the table because palestinians want it to be. they have the power to push it or drop it - jordan merely plays the supporting role. to verify this, i would ask any arab of palestinian origin living anywhere in the world whether they believe in the right of return. as for what israel allows, that's another story. if the palestinian leadership feels that this is an unachievable goal then they should drop the issue.
  • Mohanned
    I wasn't specifically referring to your comment. Plus, perception is reality, whether we like it or not. Objective reality rarely presents itself in our subjective minds. As such, when intelligent individuals like yourself use the term "minority" to describe thousands of people and their priceless lives, aspirations, and dreams, what it does is that it affects and influences the perceptions of many others who might not be able to comprehend the idea of having your life changed overnight.

    " the right of return is a palestinian issue."
    But the actions of our appointed government made it a Jordanian issue.You don't support by destroying lives.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Logical writing indeed; but why bleed thousands of Palestinians of their life's savings and then renege over night; what one thought was his government turns its back and rips apart his legal status, rendering him stateless. Why let a hapless population invest, pay taxes, duties and share in the making of a country's future if you had in mind tampering with their future later; political mess or none. Does anyone in his or her right mind believe that this will be good for Jordan???
  • Tarawnah
    in essence i agree. but the fault of the government regarding this ongoing policy (be it revoking citizenship or denying citizenship to a select few) is based on their inability to deal in specifics. all governments are forced to deal in abstractions, and thus public policy tends to be applied with various generalizations in mind, which obviously means some will fall through the cracks as a consequence.

    that said, WE, the people, should not follow in these same footsteps and be tied down by these same restrictions - dealing with our fellow citizens also as abstractions. we cannot pretend that everyone who's citizenship is being revoked is a tax-paying, law-abiding, investment-driven citizen. this is not to say that many are not. hence my argument: let's not generalize and/or punish people any more than what is already being done to them.

    with that being said, picking up on the argument you post: if this is an issue that will evolve beyond the confines of a conversation (both online and offline) and move in to the realms of advocacy, then there should be some form of a cost/benefit analysis of the situation. few of our government policies (or that of any other nation) are driven by an appeal to empathy or poetic renderings.

    they are driven by economics.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    I totally agree on talking abstractions; but didn't those abstractions generate from the lack of clarity in communication on the Government's part (endemic as we all know), this was what has blown all fears out of proportion. What boggles one's mind is that some people (I know a few of those), who have never been to Palestine except for being born there, have had their passports revoked and had only through big wastas managed to regain their previous Jordanian status. Doesn't this make one wonder who's actually is running the country (law vs. lawlessness)? For investment's sake too, which has been Jordan's favorite subject in the last few years; doesn't government wonder how this would eventually count on the investor confidence index. I mean if you can tamper with such sacred icons as passports without due recourse or legal clarities, investment and other laws are nothing but ink on paper. At any rate I truly hope this mambo jumbo blows over soon and clarity is fully reinstated.
  • i love jordan
    هذا القرار السياسى لمصلحه ابنائنا ممن سحبت جنسياتهم لان الاردن سوف تصرف لهم رواتب شهريه بامر الملك عبدالله بمبلغ 800 دينار اردنى لصالح كل شخص حتى يستطيع المتضرر ان يعيش بكرامه والاردن ملتزمه بذلك حتى تحل القضيه الفلسطينيه ان شاء الله فالملك شعاره المواطن اغلى ما نملك

    باعتقادي الاردن تحتاج الى تصويب اوضاع من دون ادنى شك...كل حامل للجنسيه حتى ابناء العشائر يجب ان يسأل تحت القسم اذا كان يعتبر نفسة اردني واذا ولاءه الاول للاردن...وبناءا على الاجابة تعطى او تستبدل الجنسية باقامة...هكذا هو النظام بامريكا وباقي دول العالم.. يجب ان تضع الاردن نهاية لهذه المهزلة...ربما في حينها سيقدر المواطن الاردني معنى المواطنة...ستون عاما من الصبر واجيال تلد وتموت على ثرى الاردن ولا تحمل سوى الحقد الاعمى والضغينة على هذا البلد الكريم..

    هذا القرار هو اولا قرار سيادي اردني وهو ثانيا لتثبيت حق الشعب الفلسطيني في ارضه ولتفويت الفرصة على الصهاينه في جعل الاردن الوطن البديل لفلسطين لهذا على كل اردني وفلسطيني شريف أن يؤيد هذا القرار . الاردن لا ولم ولن يتخلى عن حق الشعب الفلسطيني في العودة الى بلده ومقدساته واقامة دولته المستقله على كامل التراب الوطني الفلسطيني وعاصمتها القدس الشريف ومن العار كل العار التنكر لما قدمه الاردن وشعبه وقيادته الهاشميه من تضحيات في سبيل فلسطين لقد قدمنا ملوكنا شهداء على عتبات الاقصى فماذا قدم غيرنا ؟؟؟
  • Mohanned
    خذلك!!
  • ramseytesdell
    Editor's note: I'm glad we are enjoying the conversation, but I just want to remind everyone to keep it respectful. Don't attack anyone personally. Let's stick to the important issue at hand.

    Thanks!
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
  • mkzakaria
    Yes. I was going to draw attention to that article so thanks for doing it already. The shame is when a state toys with its own rules. There was no decision by the gov. to fix things for those people, only HM speech. Also any case of nationality withdrawal should be considered by the king personally. That's is the law. And what is this non-sense about how a Jordanian woman cannot pass her citizenship to her husband?
  • Tawfiq
    Dr. Kasim is very articulate, thanks for posting this!
  • Barry
    whats really important though..is the FREE WEB!! no ? lol
  • Maha
    To All of you: I have no interest what so ever in discussing your emotions on sha3eb wa7ad mish sha3bain. I'm talking about the HRW report
    "Jordanians of Palestinian origin whose nationality is withdrawn become stateless because, under international law, Palestine in 2009 is not a state and has not been one at any time since Jordan's independence." Human Rights Watch and International organization choose to point the finger at Jordanian policies instead of dealing with the real problem or even shedding some light on it. The problem is that countries of the world recognize Israel and don't consider Palestine a state therefore stripping all Palestinians of their identity and right to return to their non existent state. The fact that the international world has refused the legal statehood of Palestine, has rendered Palestinians stateless in the first place.

    The determination of who has a right to be a national falls within a State's domestic jurisdiction, even with all the complexities of the two states and disengagement it remains a domestic issue. It is not up to the HRW to say the world doesn't recognize Palestine so Jordan has to give citizenship to all Palestinians. If Jordan didn't care about the human aspect they could have done what Egypt, Lebanon and Syria have done like Tawfiq said.

    Deema: The majority were Palestinians living in Kuwait.

    Tawfiq: this is not about a measure of citizenship, it's about legal citizenship, in my opinion most inhabitants of this country don't fulfill a fraction of their duties as humans let alone as citizens.

    Zenah...it is this idiotic rhetoric about favors, a small sized country "needing" population, and "making us the enemy" that causes racism and sayings like mlookheyatek o 3al jesser. This is not about favors and ta7meel jmeeleh this is an actual problem that affects millions.
  • Mohanned
    What citizenship are you referring to? Does the fact that more than half of the population are still treated as temporary guests contribute to the "citizenship" disorder? Or maybe it is the fact that the other half are acting like children trying to protect the affirmative action-like privileges granted by the appointed governments? We are not syria or lebanon. We are JORDAN, and that is who we are. People,regardless of their origin, shouldn't pay the prices for politics. When king Hussein viewed palestine as part of his "destiny", wasn't he also contributing to the destiny of Jordan-where we are now? Why should anyone pay the price for decisions made by the few, not to mention that they are unelected few.

    Legal citizenship?Legal? Whom are we kidding, legality is a Joke in Jordan. Lives of people changed overnight "legally". Women killed, "legally". Children abused, "legally". Parliament dissolved,"legally". People held indefinitely,"legally".

    Legal,doesn't necessarily mean morally or ethically right. The fact that you dismissed a child's dreams as emotions is telling. The fact that you rules "fairness" as insignificant is also quite telling. You actually proved my point that,some of us,actually suffer from a chronic empathy deficiency disorder.

    "in my opinion most inhabitants of this country don't fulfill a fraction of their duties as humans let alone as citizens."
    To describe citizens as merely "inhabitants" is quite revealing as how you view us. You seem to intentionally ignore and "forget" the history and the politics that made us passive citizens only trying to protect whats "ours". You also seem to ignore that being marginalized for so long can only make you more detached. To use occupation and the "wa6an badeel" argument is only proof and a sign of political, and more importantly, moral bankruptcy.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.
  • Maha
    In everything i have discussed i was discussing الجنسية not المواطنة.
    the measure of good citizenship as in معيار المواطنة الصالحة is a totally different discussion that we are not getting into now. When i referred to inhabitants it was a side comment and i do mean anyone within the borders of Jordan and yes if you look at how much trash is in the streets, vandalism of public property, and lack of respect on city street that shows you general lack of good citizenship. Not our topic! Don't twist things

    in 1988 King Hussein announced that Jordan would "respect the wish of the PLO, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people [according to an Arab League decision of 1974], to secede from us as an independent Palestinian state."[13] Responding to this PLO request to secede, Jordan severed its legal and administrative ties to the West Bank, a process generally known as "disengagement" and "severance of ties" (fakk al-irtibat in Arabic).After this declaration Palestinians outside Jordan ceased to be Jordanians. Accordingly Palestinians who returned to Jordan in 1990-91 are not considered Jordanians.
    Why is the government doing this 22 years too late? Pick a despicable twisted conspiracy theory that helps you play the victim role
    Because that's how long it takes for the government to do things
    because the government wanted the Kuwaiti savings of new wave Palestinians refugees
    because the population of Palestinians is exceeding Jordanians
    because the the odds are against the pro Hashemite government if Palestinians are voting citizens
    because the UN funds and USAID are suffering from the economic crisis and Jordan can no longer تشحد على اللاجئين
    because Jordan is a puppet for Israel and wants to help them make Palestinians miserable
    Sho kaman?

    If Jordan, it's rulers and people, are racist against Palestinians like everyone is accusing them to be then they could have closed their borders to the Palestinians from Kuwait, or treated Palestinians like Lebanon, Syria and Egypt do.

    The chronic empathy deficiency disorder is a side effect of the epidemic scale self victimization.
    Yes, Israel raped Palestine
    Yes, It continues to do so
    Yes, Palestinians are homeless and stateless
    Yes It sucks, it's sad, it's atrocious and outrageous
    but Jordan is not the Enemy, and Jordan is not responsible for the plight of Palestinians and Jordan has helped more than anyone and offered a home and will continue to do so, APPRECIATE THAT. Know your enemy and know your best friend.
    Empathy well has run dry.stop begging for empathy it's not what WE NEED and think up some solutions to this problem we are a population of millions!! Should we have Palestinians with Jordanian Passports or Jordanians with Palestinian right of return, what terms should we negotiate?with whom?

    Sadly what the uproar really is all about is the inconveniences of travel, ownership and paperwork. You are not gonna wake up someday to be kicked out to the border, maybe someday you will go to a government agency and realize you don't have a number or can't renew your passport. A passport is not and identity and never will be!

    On a personal note to Mohannad: Get off your high moral unicorn, your writing has been nothing more than emotional whining. you love putting people in a box and always find things "telling and revealing" about them so you can resort to personal attacks.
    Shame on you??...Grow the hell up man.
    Stop playing the victim role, if you act like a biatch everyone will ride you like one
  • zeidinio
    مها

    لقد قلت لك سابقا بأن ضم الضفة الغربية كانت رغبة شديدة من الملك عبدالله وبموافقة وترتيب الوكالة اليهودية و بذلك تم تجنيس الفلسطينيين اذن واقولها بكل وضوح الجنسية الاردنية ليست منّة من أحد فلا تشعري للحظة واحدة على المستوى الشخصي بأنك افضل من أي أردني من أصل فلسطيني ولا تنسي معنى المواطنة الحقيقي حول المسؤوليات والواجبات
  • zeidinio
    مها
    لا تنسي بأن الاردن خسرت الضفة الغربية في الحرب وعليها مسؤولية أخلاقية وتاريخية لاعادتها

    ايضا, بضم الضفة الغربية منعت قيام الدولة الفلسطينية وهذه مسؤولية أخرى على الأردن

    فماذا تفعل الاردن الآن حيال ذلك؟
    تسحب جنسيات الاردنيين من أصل فسطيني!!!
  • Mohanned
    Are you trying to rationalize only to make yourself feel better? Seriously.
    I guess my talk flies right above your head. You aren't be able to understand what I am saying.

    Hopefully you will be "inconvenienced" some day.

    On a more personal note: Thank you :) You are the epitome of empathy deficiency disorder. It seems that you don't have the capacity to counter the above arguments, thus proving your moral and political bankruptcy.
  • Maha
    Do you have a single relevant comment to make that has more to do with the issue and the commentary and less with my empathetic deficiency disorder (are there pills for this)?
    and you speak of the capacity to counter arguments?!

    Seriously ..More empathy will make all these problem go away?
  • nas k
    actually she made a lot of good points that you have avoided answering and diverted the disscusion to yet another psycho analysis , you could have included this bit at the end of your discussion after you illustrate her moral and political bankruptcy
  • Mohanned
    If you can't see her moral bankruptcy in the arguments she advances then you must be like her.As simple as that.
  • nas k
    you see that the emotional bs that she is talking about, look at how many times u mocked me or attacked my person, why? cause i disagree with you on some points, u went on and on about how racist i am yet when i showed u that the original text clearly said jordanians and palestinians u did not even have the maturity to say , yo i misunderstood,

    this is trend that i find truly amusing in Jordan, pro and anti govt groups are both guilty of it, whenever they disagree with someone ,its accusations, mocking ,allegations and claims of moral , nationalistic , patriotic , religious and mental superiority , your first response to me ended with calling me ignorant and racist, to a point which you clearly misunderstood, you should practice what you preach , u want political freedoms then you have to learn how to act in such an environment.

    comments like , i wont count it as a loss, is something that i expect from a uni or a high school student, not someone who is claiming to be capable and willing to take part of a serious political discussion.

    best regards

    the ignorant
  • Mohanned
    You said:
    "Palestinians and Jordanians who came her from the Gulf are a different breed to the rest of us."

    Then "its usually Palestinians who have not grown up here or had ties to this country who view themselves as Palestinian or Jordanians from Palestinian origins"

    Then you added insult to injury saying: "Hijab and bearded men have increased dramatically since 1991,Coincidence? The westernization of our society has also increased dramatically since 1991, Coincidence?"

    If the above statements are not textbook examples of either ignorance and/or racism I don't know what is!
  • nas k
    really? so palestinians who grew up in the US view themselves as jordanians???????? even when they have no ties to it? wtf are u saying?
  • Tawfiq
    Oh Maha, that was so incredibly inapropriate. I agree with the fact that Mohannad tends to get a bit emotional, but your response is so out of line. And you are wrong on so many levels, the fact that you think it's ok for some person to go to a government agency and find out that they no longer have a national number, rendering them "passport less" is amazing, you are in serious denial about what the problem is here. The fact that you have placed your self sole decider of who is Jordanian and who is not (reference to your line that Palestinians who returned in 1990-1991 are not considered Jordanians) is a symptom of the problem. And yes, 22 years is too late, sorry. 22 years of building permanent links, like homes, investments, children, families, and yes a national identity that people like you with a few words can not sever. And I'm sorry to say 22 years, that's reductionist, the links (as I said before) go way way way back, there have been Jordanians of Palestinian descent in Jordan from the dawn of Jordan's history, and I dare you to call any of them and tell them that they are "less Jordanian".
    Finally, no, no one is calling on any government conspiracy, but the way things are going right now are not "the correct way", and yes there is a right and a wrong especially when we have a country like Jordan that we hold to such a high moral standard.

    One last thing, stop blaming the victims, it's a bully tactic, and it's useless, this is a time when solutions need to be devised, realistic solutions, and when you start to express yourself in an almost relishing manner like this, then you (like Mohannad) have made this personal and emotional, there should be no joy in the fact that peoples lives are completely uprooted. And no it is so much more than "inconvenience of travel and paperwork"...really? When you make comments like that, how is that moving the debate forward?
  • Mohanned
    Thanks.
    But one thing: What is so "personal" when talking about injustice? How can such stories be viewed as neither personal nor emotional? Labeling something as emotional doesn't mean that the arguments are less valid. People need to understand that emotions are part of who we are.

    Speaking about fairness and justice is inherently emotional. Taking emotions out of the "equation" dehumanize us.
  • Tawfiq
    Maha, you are right, it's about legal citizenship, and can we honestly say that the way that the passports have been revoked, fall within the constraints of legality? And when you say that the "inhabitants of this country don't fulfill a fraction of their duties as humans let alone as citizens" do you mean all inhabitants, does your scrutiny apply to all the people who reside in this country?

    Withdrawal of citizenship is a very dangerous and rarely rewarding road that should be left for dealing with traitors, and political parriahas, instead of rendering people illegal within their own homes.

    Again, an almost "easy" solution is for the processes to be made transparent.
  • nas k
    nice post, but can you please explain to me what this has to do with my original comment?

    which was in case you forgot , was.

    Hijab and bearded men have increased dramatically since 1991,Coincidence?

    The westernization of our society has also increased dramatically since 1991, Coincidence?

    I dont think so.
  • Phalestinian
    this is some of what happened to/in the middle east in 1991..it wasn't just our 'inconvenient presence' read up on all the American presence, that answers ur 'The westernization of our society has also increased dramatically since 1991, Coincidence?'

    i suppose the palestinians are the ones who spread and promoted the whole hijab and facial hair? i believe that came with islam..i could be wrong..
    if you can't hold a conversation please don't embarrass yourself.
  • nas k
    lets not personalize the issue, i clearly said i was talking about Palestinians AND JORDANIANS, so i am not saying this was only Palestinian thing.

    moving on, what happened in the gulf is that the salafi movement took over the religious institutions, most of these sheikh and scholars came from Egypt, the type of islam they preached there is very very very different than the sort we were taught here.

    when these jordanians and or palestinians came to Jordan they brought back that type of Islam with them . they also brought back a lot of money, this is why the naqabat for example are highly islamicized .
  • Mohanned
    Are you serious? The muslim brotherhood were the poster child for the jordanian regime.The regime used them to counter the leftist movements and empowered them. The arab-afghans were also used by the regime to help the US when they fought against the soviets.

    Get your facts straight and don't skew history to serve your racist agenda.
  • nas k
    also how is racist to say because of the influence of jordanians and palestinians?

    who am i being racists towards in that sentence? Martians?
  • nas k
    yes but there always an ally for the regime, not anymore, even today there is a huge split in the muslim brotherhood because of the influence of hamas on it.
  • Phalestinian
    this is some of what happened to/in the middle east in 1991..it wasn't just our 'inconvenient presence' read up on all the American presence, that answers ur 'The westernization of our society has also increased dramatically since 1991, Coincidence?'
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci...

    i suppose the Palestinians are the ones who spread and promoted the whole hijab and facial hair? i believe that came with Islam..i could be wrong..
    if you can't hold a conversation please don't embarrass yourself.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Look in the mirror Nas and ask yourself why you too is different form others. And I rest my case.
  • Nas k
    JorPales,

    Sorry bro you lost me with that response.
  • Mohanned
    I wouldn't count it as a loss.
  • zeidinio
    في عام 1950 جرى ضم الضفة الغربية الى الاردن ضمن استفتاء وانتخابات ديمقراطية وبالتالي اصبح الفلسطينيون اردنيون بكل معنى الكلمة
    يذكر ان ضم الضفة الى الاردن كانت رغبة كبيرة لدى الملك عبدالله الاول.
    اي سحب جنسية لاي سبب هو تمييز عنصري واضح و تطهير عرقي .
    هكذا يقول القانون
  • Maha
    The 1950 unity was restricted,conditional and temporary, it was more for administering the remaining Palestinian land and not to replace the Palestinian identity with a Jordanian one. The disengagement of 1988 repealed it. Mind your words تمييز عنصري واضح و تطهير عرقي is a huge accusation usually directed at Israeli practices don't put Jordan in the same boat
  • zeidinio
    الى مها
    ارجو التوضيح بماذا كان قرار ضم الضفة مشروطا و مؤقتا؟
    هل هذا يعني ان الحكومة الاردنية تستطيع سحب الجنسية من الاردنيين من أصل فلسطيني متى شائت
    بالطبع لا فهذا مخالف للقانون

    يعتبر المؤرخون ان أكبر ضرر لحق بالشعب الفلسطيني هو انضمامهم الى الضفة الشرقية حيث يقطن البدو الصحراويون وهم-الشعب الفلسطيني- حضر بحريون وبطبيعة الحال كان هناك مد وجزر بين البحر والصحراء و ما نشهده الآن هو طغيان التفكير الصحراوي البدوي على المدنية والحضارة ما أدى الى ممارسة التمييز العنصري ضد نصف الشعب الذي من أصل فاسطيني
    و هنا يلتقي الأردني والاسرائيلي بتصرف مشترك الا وهو طرد الفلسطينيين اي تطهير عرقي
    واجهي الحقيقة يا مها فهكذا ينظر العالم أجمع للأردن و للأسف

    بدلا أن نجعل هذه الوحدة بين الشعبين مصدر قوة لنا جعلناها مصدر ضعف وتفكك

    ولأسباب الحقيقية لممارسة هذا التمييز الواضح لنا تعليق آخر
  • Maha
    أكبر ضرر لحق بالشعب الفلسطيني هو انضمامهم الى الضفة الشرقية حيث يقطن البدو الصحراويون وهم-الشعب الفلسطيني- حضر بحريون وبطبيعة الحال كان هناك مد وجزر بين البحر والصحراء و ما نشهده الآن هو طغيان التفكير الصحراوي البدوي على المدنية والحضارة

    المتخلفون البدو العنصريون فتحوا أبوابهم للمطرودين من ارضهم الذين اليوم تركوا عدوهم و قاتلوا بعضهم لانهم قمة الحضارة والانسانية. فتحوا أبوابهم للمطرودين من الكويت لانهم خانوا البلد اللي لمتهم
    بدو و بنفتخر البلد بلا حما مابتنبنا
    قاعد بحضني وبنتف بذقني وبحكي عنا مش متحضرين
    يا سيدي خلينا الحضارة لفتح و حماس و منظمة التحرير و اشكالك
    الحمدلله انه مش كل الفلسطينيين في الأردن بيفكروا زيك
  • zeidinio
    مها

    ما زلت تتصرفين وان الاردن له منّة على الفلسطينيين بتجنيسهم وهذا أكبر خطأ للاسباب التي شرحتها سابقا
    فكلمات مثل ان الاردن "فتح ابوبه للمطرودين" او"قاعد بحضني وبنتف بذقني" هي مقولات غير صحيحة على الاطلاق و تدعو لكراهية الاردنيين من أصل فلسطيني و من يقولها , مثلك , فهو عنصري بغيض بمفهوم جميع المجتمعات الدولية المتحضرة.
    لماذا برأيك جنّس الاردن الفلسطينيين ومنعهم من اقامة دولتهم الفلسطينية؟ هل بسبب سواد عيون الفلسطينيين ام هناك اسباب أخرى يا مها؟

    واضح انك لم تقرأ التاريخ جيدا وان معلوماتك منتقاة و مستوحاة من كلام الجارات وعامة الشعب البسيط لذلك انت لا تستطيعين الرد على تعليقاتي بالمنطق وانما بالعواطف . وبهذا فأنت تناقدين نفسك عندما اتهمتي بعض المعلقين بأنهم يتحدثون بالعواطف بدلا من العقل, حسنا اذن خاطبني بالعقل ميشان الله!

    اعلمي جيدا بأن كل اردني يحمل جواز السفر الاردني هو مواطن اردني تماما مثلك بغض النظر كيف حصل على الجنسية و هذا من مصلحة الاردن العظمى

    وما علاقة كل هذا بفتح وحماس ؟ اذا اردت النقاش حول من قدّم انجازات أكثر للعالم الفلسطينيون ام الاردنيون فهيا بنا نتحاور ولكن انصحك عدم التورط في هذا الموضوع .
    حتى انا ارفض النقاش في مثل هذا الموضوع ولكني ذكرته لأبيّن كيف استفاد الاردنيون من هجرة الفلسطينيين و خسر الفلسطينيون من ضم الضفة

    والآن وبعد عدة مليارات من الدولارات تخرج علينا مها وامثالها ليقولوا لنا ارجعوا فانتم لسنا منا
  • Maha
    You are the one who who brought up the discrimination and said Jordanians are backward Bedouins, then said that the uncivilized Bedouins were responsible for losing Palestine, if you were so strong mighty and advanced then why the hell couldn't you protect your land and left it up to el bedo? Then you accused Jordan, your home country, the only country that welcomed Palestinians as equal citizens of ethnic cleansing. Who is blinded by hate and calling for it? i rest my case
    And you are attempting to divert the discussion to who is better Palestinians or Jordanians, and who did who a favor.
  • nas k
    OH we goin down that route? spare me man, people who grow up in different countries will have a different understanding of history, culture, religion and such.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    You know what, if your feelings reflect that of the "Jordanian majority" we're all doomed, no question about it. Read some Jordanian history, which you claim to know so much about. You'll realize that the beauty of Jordan is its multicultural mosaic. Its diversity is its power and uniqueness; its multicolored mindsets is what make it a better place; its intelligence stems from the fact that every now and then it is infused with new blood, new thinking; be it Cherkasian, Syrian or Palestinian; there are here Lebanese, Armenians and Turks too; there are Indians, Pakistanis and Iraqis, who now invest heavily in Jordan and control some serious assets, along with the Kuwaitis, Emiratis, Saudis and others who have been investing heavily in the welfare of Jordan. Our small Kingdom is how the Arab world should become and it suffers no ails because it is open and renewed in spirit; we are strong because we're enriched through the very differences that you seem to dislike. This is my Jordan.
  • Phalestinian
    very well said..i will refrain from addressing this because i have nothing polite or good to say.
    to those who think we're a different 'breed' because we were kicked out of kuwait, u better learn some manners and pick up a dictionary every now and then.

    A breed is a group of domestic animals with a homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other characteristics that distinguish it from other animals of the same species. When bred together, animals of the same breed pass on these uniform traits to their offspring, and this ability—known as "breeding true"—is a definitive requirement for a breed. The offspring produced as a result of breeding animals of one breed with other animals of another breed are known as crossbreeds or mixed breeds. Plant breeds are more commonly known as varieties, or cultivars, and crosses between plant cultivars (or species) are referred to as hybrids.[1]. Breeds are usually not classified scientifically; instead being grouped by breeders according to similar characteristics.

    don't you EVER refer to me or my people as animals.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Nas said: "Palestinians and Jordanians who came her from the Gulf are a different breed to the rest of us"

    Reply: I'm seeing a doctor to remove my tail to blend in with your breed.
  • Jorpalebanesyriraqiandmore
    Those so called Palestinians from Kuwait created companies that employed Jordanians and Palestinians, bought land that kept prices well above their true value, became doctors, opened schools, started magazines and supermarkets, helped Jordan bring investment inflows, went back to the Gulf again to work and still remit balances to Jordanian banks, have paid government taxes throughout their work periods and have come with a lot of expertise that helped the Jordanian economy thrive; yes, they have done a lot of enterprising work as part of a Jordanian community; they weren't impoverished illiterates who were subsidized by government as refugees. One gets a Canadian or American citizenship by simply being there, as birth right or as a good mind to gain to help his host nation become better; that what identity is; after being labeled as a fake Jordanian, one will want to go away because the future is always as good as its clarity and transparency; when such basics are gone the mind will also seek options, and not only by Palestinians but by many good Jordanians as well. At the end the mother of all identities should be our love for intelligence and good work; our simpler identity is that we're all Arabs, love it or hate it; our ideal powerful answer to Israel's scare tactics and BS should be that yes we are all Syria, yes we are all Tunisia, yes we are all Egypt, yes we are all Yemen, Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq; yes we are all Palestine; yes we are one and belong to one history, a history that has forsaken us because we've become shortsighted and slaves to the colonial mind frame.
  • Nas k
    TO JORPALEBANES.....

    What is it the you have in common with your avg guy in Marrakesh?

    if you are a secular and he is a practicing muslim ?

    language? hardly, you can only communicate in classical arabic, and since 50% of us cant read or write there is very little chance that you and he will be able to communicate.

    Religion? what if he was an extremist and you are not?


    Palestinians and Jordanians who came her from the Gulf are a different breed to the rest of us. Their understanding of Jordan, its history , its people is different, from my experience Palestinians who have grown up here or who have had strong ties to Jordan , view themselves as Jordanians, its usually Palestinians who have not grown up here or had ties to this country who view themselves as Palestinian or Jordanians from Palestinian origins

    Hijab and bearded men have increased dramatically since 1991,Coincidence?

    The westernization of our society has also increased dramatically since 1991, Coincidence?

    I dont think so.
  • Mohanned
    Different breed? How racist of you!

    Okay,let me put it this way,because people like you only respond to such medicine.

    What about the king,the queen,and the PM, how "similar" are they to you?
    How about the Jordanian Zarqawi and the extremists from salt,maan,karak, and irbid? Are they "similar" enough for you?

    "from my experience Palestinians who have grown up here or who have had strong ties to Jordan"

    Your "experience" means nothing. It is THEIR experience, and you have no right talking on their behalf.

    How about we have a national level loyalty and citizenship test? How racist and ignorant!
  • nas k
    mohannad pls dont reply to my posts if you dont bother reading them

    i clearly said


    "Palestinians and Jordanians who came her from the Gulf are a different breed to the rest of us"

    so spare me the racist tags and that bs.
  • Zenah
    I don't think Maha should be making this as if Jordan did us a favor. Jordan willingly, took Palestinians in. It needed population, and it was listening to the orders given to it back in 1948. Ask your parents, you'll realize that there was a direct travelling route to Nablus where Jordanians used to go to markets there, and there wasn't much prejudice between Palestinians and Jordanians. But now that Jordan got more than it ever wanted, it decided to throw us behind and make us the enemy. Whether coming from Kuwait or not, I think this is nothing to do with humanity, but it's just plain selfish. Okay, take back the citizenship. Better yet, we're not preaching for Arab unity to fight Israel, but at least if you're not gonna support us, and you're so concerned in Jordan's welfare as you claim, don't support them either and keep politics strictly local.
  • Maha
    This is one of the least intelligent articles ever featured on 7iber. Emotional BS

    At what point did the Palestinian who moved from Palestine to Kuwait then got kicked out in 1990 and sought refuge in Jordan, become a Jordanian citizen?
    This is not an issue about Jordanians from Palestinian origin, the at risk population as mentioned in the report is mainly"Hundreds of thousands of Jordanians of Palestinian origin appear liable to have their national number revoked, including some 200,000 Palestinian-origin Jordanians who returned to Jordan from Kuwait in 1990-91." in most cases it's about Palestinians who never were Jordanians and because of an "empathetic emotional decision" during the wartime they were given national ID numbers. Make up your mind is Jordan "Watan Badeel" or not?

    Where do you draw the line, if you give Palestinians who moved from Kuwait citizenship, what about Palestinians in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt?? If you want a chance to return to Palestine and you are actively filling "Lam shamel" paperwork like the case of Fadi, then you are not a Jordanian citizen. If you got kicked out of Kuwait in 1990 and got stuck in Jordan then that doesn't make you a Jordanian. If you are in Jordan because you got "stuck" here in and out of other Arabian countries you shouldn't get an empathetic citizenship status. In most other countries you will be legally deported or at least forbidden from working and living a normal life.
  • Tawfiq
    Maha, how do we measure citizenship? These Palestinians that have gone to Jordan in the 1990-1991 period were not entering it for the first time, for many it was home for decades prior, their families live there, they always owned land, and homes. For many (nay most) it was never a parasitic state of mind. It was not like all the Palestinians woke up in 1991, and thought: "Ok, I've been deported from Kuwait, where do I go? Eeny meeny miny mo..JORDAN" No of course not, Jordan was always home, and that thought bonded Palestinian and Jordanian for decades, until this new madness began. Also, it's important to know that many "Jordanians of Palestinian origin" love, and associate with Jordan, recognize themselves as Jordanian, and would give their lives without a second to defend it. But for a long time there has been a refusal from the Jordanian side to accept this notion, if someone introduced themselves as Jordanian the response came "...but where are you from...originally?" This of course was implicitly asking, are you Palestinian? Why can a person not decide on his/her own national identity, these people who love Jordan, and want to be Jordanian, and want to be invested in Jordan's success, should be encouraged, and rewarded, not alienated, and ultimately as said before "dehumanized". The Jordanian approach to Palestinian issues has been rewarding and very succesful, and we can see that in this great country. Which model would you prefer? The Lebanese-model? Introduce an official 'second class' citizen system whereby Palestinians are relegated in a crypto-caste system? Or what about the Egyptian one, whereby state-less and ostricized to the last breath.
    Finally, if this process is "corrective" as you imply, then there should be complete transperancy in what constitutes grounds for a 'withdrawal' of citizenship.
  • Deena
    Maha, while I understand your larger political reasoning, I can not accept its chauvinism. People should not be tools in political end games; what are those citizens supposed to do: - buy food on what money? live on what income now that they can't work? maybe they should sit around and wait for ta7reer Palestine, that should happen any day now.

    This is one story, of many: http://www.alghad.com/?news=476661
    Some are Palestinians who arrived from Kuwait, others are not. Generalising is demeaning to the personal stories, challenges and tribulations they have endured.

    My by far favourite #Top50JO tweet was Naseem Tarawnah's "how when a calamity happens in the region & everyone elses' borders are closed, ours remain open". Because a country isn't built solely on political reasoning; no country will ever be successful if its citizens cease to believe in its core identity and values. To me, a common denominator of humanity has always been ours. We can find more ways of annihilating the "Watan Badeel" propaganda without undermining our humanity or who we are as Jordanians.

    You may call it emotional bs, but emotion remains the most important fact.
  • Mohanned
    I couldn't have said it better. Thank you Deena :)
    Empathy and humane treatment should and must be our niche. Let us be in the region the country that gives rights, the nation that helps, the nation that cares.
  • Mohanned
    Danna,
    You can refer to the original report. The government claims that by revoking the citizenship they are protecting palestinians from loosing their land and identity. In a way, it is the government's approach to "Jihad"! Fight the occupation by making the lives of a certain segment of Jordanians from palestinian origin more miserable and less bearable.
  • Narsis
    I can't say how sorry i am for the injustice policy which being practiced against palestinian people. but; yes there is a but, the palestinian case is so complex from one side there is Fath who is the legitimate leader of the palestinian people,(who negotiate and sign agreements in their behalf who should the palestinian people refer to in all cases)
    Hamas who leads the Jihad (who decided to enter the political game and forgot about the Jihad), Israel who wants to keep the refugees out of palestine and you have the arab countries with a regugee delaema.(let us not forget how jordan stood by the palestinian people all these years)
    the way i see it, that there is a movement towarde pushing people to revolte against jordanian goverment for stripping the citizenship, the international society will criticize this action therefore the jordanian goverment will responce by giving you a choice whether (A) to keep the jordanian citizenship and loose all the refugees rights (which thats exactly what israel wants) or (B) to keep the palestinian citizenship (in this case jordan will deal with it as any arab nationalty )
    since no one will leave a land which he born and raised in i believe that most of the palestinian will go with (A)
    what the arab media and the jordanian one especially doing right now is fueling this matter in a way that we arabs doing exactly what was planned for us to do
  • Guest
    Thanks Mohanned for putting this out there. What's the reasoning that the government has given for revoking citizenship? who are these people? I'm not sure if you are referring to a specific case. can you elaborate more on this please?
  • لا أقول غير..لكي الله يا فلسطين ويا شعب فلسطين
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